Chaos vo svete

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shafa
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Re: Chaos vo svete

Príspevokod užívateľa shafa » St Júl 27, 2011 9:34 pm

To mas nemlich stejny jak v Iraku.

Cela 80. leta US a UK Saddama podporovali a dobre vedeli jake masakry dela. Hodil se jim jeho rezim.
Ti sami lide, co ho podporovali pak na nej v 90. letech poradali stavanici, mimo jine pro to, ze pry vyviji biologicke zbrane (coz ale nemuselo byt daleko od reality).

Kdyz se "zjistilo", ze bio zbrane v Iraku nejsou, tak se nasel duvod rozsirovani demokracie. A demokracii zacli vymahat lide, kteri podporovali prave diktatorske rezimy.

Na zemi byly uvalene "mezinarodni" (rozumnej US) sankce, ale lide co tam organizovali pomoc na sva mista rezignovali, protoze videli ze obycejni lide upadaji do bidy a jsou ucelove cim dal vic zavisli na bohatsim a bohatsim diktatorovi a zeme se propada do chaosu.
Media v US o tom cilene neinformovala... Proc asi.

Kdyz se rozdelovaly ksefty firmam na obnovu rozbombardovaneho Iraku, tak zemim, ktere si demokraticky rozhodly, ze agresi podporovat nebudou, nebyl umoznen pristup. Tem ktere si od US nechali poroucet, tak se ke korytu nejak dostaly.
To je prava podpora demokracie :D

Kdyz mel byt Saddam souzen, tak ho nechali odsoudit za zlociny spachane pred rokem 82/83. Tzn. za zverstva podstatne mensiho rozsahu nez zplynovani Kurdu a vyvrazdeni siitu. Proc?
Protoze by pred soud museli predstoupit ti kteri ho v 80. letech podporovali a pote v 90. letech obvinovali a pronasledovali a museli by svedcit jak ho podporovali. Tak ro radsi splachli rychlou opratkou misto nezavisleho soudu.

Taky se nasel duvod terorismus a poskytovani podpory terorismu.
To pak cloveku hlava nebere, kdyz si vybavi, odkud sly teroristicke akce proti Kube, Paname, Nikaraguy, svrzeni demokraticky zvolene vlade v Chile, atd.
Co si myslet o zemi, ktera chce utocit na jine zeme kvuli "podpore terorismu" a sama je nejvetsim podporovatelem terorismu na svete? Ktera hlasa a zbrani v ruce siri demokracii v jinych zemich a soucasne s tim ji potlacuje a nastoluje diktatorske rezimi a loutkovlady?
Je to divadlo...
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Re: Chaos vo svete

Príspevokod užívateľa Palo M. » Št Aug 11, 2011 10:05 am

Nejakou cudesnou postupnostou klikov (ktoru uz ani neviem zreprodukovat) som sa dostal k jednemu dokumentu, co ma celkom zaujal:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B2BqnbCqoc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zngL_CXJZA8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2N6j35N0MCY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lWuw3dvNSg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bDn84mgyPw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwNHTebAM88&feature=related

Je to sice cele trocha "podlhovaste" a keby ma nezaujal ten celkom zaujimavy zaciatok (prve 2 minuty), tak by som to mozno nevydrzal dopozerat az do konca... Ale nelutujem straveny cas, lebo kazdu chvilu az do konca su tam zaujimave myslienky... napriklad pasaz o Saddamovi je vyborna.
Aj ked kazdemu to asi nesadne... a mozno som ja sam bol len vhodne naladeny... ale k tejto teme sa to IMHO hodi - pozriet sa na sucasnu situaciu vo svete cez optiku dokumentu, ktory bol natoceny niekedy v roku 2005.
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Re: Chaos vo svete

Príspevokod užívateľa Duro Kotulic Bunta » Po Aug 22, 2011 4:32 pm

Nechcem teraz uz komentovat arogantne porusovanie rezolucie OSN a utoky na civilne ciele, ktorych sa dopusta NATO kryjuc sa pokryteckymi recami o ochrane civilistov (vobec nezaostavajucimi za brainwashingom byvalych komunistickych rezimov), ale zaujala ma relativne strucna, konzistentna a retoricky zdatna sumarizacia piatich dovodov (mimo ziskania ropy), kvoli ktorym zapadne krajiny chceli zvrhnut nepohodlny rezim a zautocili na Libyu pod ruskom povstania. Sumarizacia je podla mna natolko dobra (aj vdaka tomu, ze autor nie je nekriticky prokaddafiovsky), ze ju sem copy-pastujem fulltextovo, aj pre pripad, zeby bol link ako byva zvykom casom odstraneny ci nefunkcny.

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5 things you might not have known about the war in Libya


If you’re reading this I’m assuming your world weary enough to know that our government hasn’t been part of the war on Libya for coming on six months out of the goodness of its heart.

The powers of the Atlantic world, both European and North American launched yet another assault against a state that was not sufficiently under their control back in March. The official reason for the war, accepted with little voice of opposition in the attacking countries, is that its necessary to protect Libyans from a crazy government bent on wiping them out. Of course, the fantasy that the governments of the Euro-American powers as humanitarian crusaders is hard to believe when you take a look at the real ways these wars are carried out.

So why, at a time when the financial and social collapse of European countries is painfully obvious, are their governments spending millions of dollars every day to try and kick Col. Gadaffi out of power? As is usually the case, there isn’t a single overriding cause for the war. For example, despite the truth of saying that Iraq was a war for oil, in many ways it was as much about what money would be used to trade Iraq’s oil.

The natural reaction of many may have been that maybe Libya is about oil as well. Libya produces only 2% of the world’s oil. That’s not unimportant, especially considering that oil supplies anywhere are only going to get more difficult to find and expensive in the next few decades, and the world’s powers are already jostling for who controls the supply to the others. But it’s not as decisive a factor as it would be in a country like Iraq, where there’s much more vast reserves to be exploited. Below are five factors you might not have considered about why we’re at war in Libya:

5) Satellites and telecommunications. Until relatively recently, the African continent was dependent on its former rulers in Europe for access to satellite communications. Western companies like Intelsat used their monopoly position in space technology to fleece Africa for basic communications, collecting $500 million a year by making the most expensive place on Earth to make a phone call.

From 1992 onwards, African governments decided to actively try and extract themselves from such a blatant scam by putting up their own communications satellite. But western banks and the IMF failed to provide loans to make it possible. The project needed $400 million as a one off payment to save African countries more than that every year, meaning they would easily be able to pay it back. But with international lenders protecting the profits of European satellite companies, the project was stuck.


That is until Gadaffi stepped in with the cash, putting $300 million up to launch Africa’s first ever communications satellite in 2007. Although it was built and delivered by a European company, it’s not under their control. What’s more is that it has opened the door to African use of space, with established space powers such as Russia and China sharing technology and providing launch facilities for African countries. Algeria is now aiming to have the first satellite built and launched from African soil by 2020.

African countries have historically been divided from each other by state borders, infrastructure systems and communications networks that had been designed with the needs of colonial powers to extract resources in mind, rather than the needs of Africans themselves. Access to cheaper telecommunications is helping for the first time to connect people all over the continent by phone, broadcasting and internet. Even in rural areas people have access to distance learning, and practical information on sustainable technology and agriculture. The growth of African communications can have a transformative aspect that’s unimaginable for someone living in a post-industrial advanced capitalist country.

The west probably would have funded the project in the end, but only through extortionate loans that would have stuck African countries for interest for decades afterwards, effectively wiping out the savings they were making and continuing dependence on former colonial powers. So by putting up the cost, Gadaffi was not only depriving European satellite companies of $500 million per year, but also in the long term meant western banks missed out on potentially billions in debt repayments that would have kept coming for a long time.

4) Immigration and racism. For years Libya and the European powers were engaged in a pretty sick and inhuman diplomatic game with human lives as the chess pieces. Huge numbers of people from throughout Africa head north every year to try and escape the effects of centuries of European exploitation by getting into Europe itself. Many of them travel across the sea from Libya. The Libyan government controlled the flow of people making it across, and made deals with Italy to accept migrants they expelled (as you can imagine, they don’t have the greatest conditions when they get to Libya). In return, they used this leverage to get economic concessions out of the European powers. Just last year, Gadaffi notoriously traveled to Italy to declare Europe should give him 5 billion Euros to prevent Africans from reaching Europe.

The reason why this is important is racism plain and simple, the anti-immigrant politics that is powerful throughout the EU that fears being “swamped” by Africans. Gadaffi exploited these fears expertly, claiming that if Libya didn’t intervene

“Tomorrow Europe might no longer be European, and even black, as there are millions who want to come in . . . We don’t know what will happen, what will be the reaction of the white and Christian Europeans faced with this influx of starving and ignorant Africans. We don’t know if Europe will remain an advanced and united continent or if it will be destroyed, as happened with the barbarian invasions.”


His attitude has never been anything but cynical, seeing African people willing to risk their lives to escape poverty as a bargaining chip with the European powers. In seeking a more compliant and easily controlled Libyan government, one of the objectives is to get a regime in place that will regard rounding up poor Africans and keeping them out of Europe as the duty of a responsible western ally, and not something they are willing to trade for concessions.

3) Water. Part of the multi-faceted crisis facing global capitalist society is due to the collapse in supply of many vital natural resources. Pretty much the most fundamental of all is fresh water. Human beings everywhere cannot survive without freshwater, but we are increasingly depleting its availability throughout the world through pollution of the supply, growing urbanisation and irrigation intensive capitalist agriculture. Just like they want to get their hands on oil fields and pipelines, any world power that doesn’t want to be dominated by others in the 21st century is gearing up to grab water sources as well. This is the reason Israel has no intention of giving Syria back any of the territory it grabbed in the 60s in the Golan Heights; and why nothing short of a global nuclear war is ever going to convince China to give up Tibet.

The UN Environmental programme warns that within the next 50 years around 3 billion people are going to be chronically short of water. This is particularly a problem in the Middle East, which has 5% of the world’s population but just 1% of its water supply. If you ever doubted that global society has pushed itself to the brink of collapse through ecological stupidity, consider that we already live in a world where wars are taking place for control of water sources; and Libya is one of them.


Col. Gadaffi is the type of leader who sees himself as one of history’s greats, a “look on my works ye mighty and despair” type guy. He wants there to be a legacy of his rule that will be remembered for centuries. And in the Great Man Made River project, he may just have found one.

Underneath the Libyan desert is the world’s largest aquifer of fossil water – that is, water that built up underground and has been sealed there since the last ice age. The Nubian Sandstone Aquifer System was discovered in the 50s during oil exploration. When Gadaffi came to power he started preparing for a mega-project to exploit this resource, which began construction in 1984. The Great Man Made River Project is the largest network of underground pipes and aqueducts in the world, with 1,300 wells that are mostly more than 500 metres deep. It delivers six and a half million cubic metres of water to thirsty Libyan cities every day, and there’s enough water there to keep doing so for the next 1000 years. But it wouldn’t have been accessible without the massive infrastructure investment of the Libyan government.

The ultimate aim of the project is to allow Libya to become agriculturally self-sufficient (currently 20% of its imports are food) by mass irrigation and reclaiming areas from the desert. Such a huge supply of water is important not just for Libya, but even more so for neighbouring countries, and many of their leaders attended its opening ceremonies. Libya has a population of just 4 million, whereas Egypt has 55 million crowded into a narrow strip around the Nile, which is becoming increasingly taxed by its overuse for water and agriculture. Gadaffi has previously talked of allowing Egyptians to migrate to Libya and being opening up areas of the desert to farming with water from the project.

The powers attacking Libya today are extremely worried about the outcome of the revolutions taking place througout the Arab world. There is no guarantee that countries such as Egypt and Tunisia will end up with governments that are easily controlled enough for the liking of Europe and the US. But if millions of Egyptians were dependent on a water infrastructure that the west could control following the conquest of Libya, then there’s a serious limit to the amount of opposition a future Egyptian government could mount to western control.

Of course, any mega-project of engineering is prone to unforeseen consequences, and the fossil water under Libya is a non-renewable resource that won’t last forever. Extracting the world’s largest aquifer of its kind could have serious geological consequences. But it’s impossible to ignore that the Great Man Made River is one of the greatest feats of engineering humans have ever completed, and cost more than the Three Gorges Dam or the large Hadron Collider (a cost that was met entirely by the Libyan state, see below). Control of it may be something the European powers think worth fighting for.

2) Banks. Finance and international aid has been the means by which the former colonial powers in Europe and the new one in the US have controlled African countries since they became independent. Western banks loan them money which must be paid back at insane interest, and which comes with conditions attached – that governments must give up control over their own economies, privatising and outsourcing the running of their economies, which in practice means handing them over to foreign companies.

Libya is an African country that has managed to maintain a higher level of independence from the west because it has kept its Central Bank under state control, and retains the power to issue its own money. This stands in stark contrast to, for example, the many former French colonies that use a currency that was created during colonial times and continue to be guaranteed by the French Treasury.


Coupled with the profits of the oil industry, this has allowed Libya to economically independent, guarantee a fairly high standard of living for its citizens, with people guaranteed basic subsistence, subsidised food, free education and free healthcare, leading to the highest lifespan in Africa. The Libyan state has substantial cash reserves, as opposed to the massively indebted governments that are attacking it. The level of economic independence that Libya enjoys from international finance is not something the global capitalist order was likely to tolerate for long.

The Libyan government’s wealth has not only benefited Libyans, and on top of the already mentioned support for the satellite project there’s the hugely economically important support for financial integration of African countries. They were providing significant funds towards the establishment of an African Monetary Fund and an African Central Bank, leading towards an African single currency.

These organisations are planned to replace the role of the international financial institutions controlled by the US and Europe, and have barred non-African countries from becoming members. By doing so, Africa would perhaps begin to finally get some measure of independence from the foreign powers that have dominated and exploited their economies for centuries. That would be intolerable for the western financial system and European powers.

Indeed, as an article in Asia Times notes, one of the first things the Libyan rebel forces did back in March was to create a central bank, not usually something that is top of the list of things you need to get done in a revolution. Robert Wenzel wrote in the Economic Policy Journal:

I have never before heard of a central bank being created in just a matter of weeks out of a popular uprising. This suggests we have a bit more than a rag tag bunch of rebels running around and that there are some pretty sophisticated influences.

And CNBC senior editor John Carney, asked,

“Is this the first time a revolutionary group has created a central bank while it is still in the midst of fighting the entrenched political power? It certainly seems to indicate how extraordinarily powerful central bankers have become in our era.” (Both quotes from Asia Times).

The rebels declared that their central bank was the only one with legitimacy over monetary affairs in Libya, and they are clearing preparing the way for surrendering Libya’s financial independence to the conquering Euro-American forces and their banks if they manage to take power.

1) Geopolitics. What these different strands add up to is that the west is unhappy with the degree of independence Libya under Gadaffi has been able to exercise from their control. Without his government being indebted to him they can’t use economic levers to control his politics. That financial independence has allowed Libya to become something of a power in Africa, driving forward processes of integration that could start removing the continent from colonial control. The model to emulate is the integration of Latin America pioneered by Venezuela, meaning that many countries there are escaping from foreign dominance. The structures of a united African continent that Libya backs are opposed to many smaller regional groupings such as ECOWAS in the west or the SADC in the south that are funded and controlled by the European Union. He’s also forged economic alliance with the emerging economic world powers of BRICS, particularly China.

One of the reasons that the US has left most of the actual war fighting in Libya to Britain and France (apart from the obvious ones that they’re skint and already busy in a bunch of other places) is that North Africa is somewhere that is accorded greater geo-strategic importance in Europe than the US. France in particular, has never ceased seeking to dominate its former colonies through undermining governments and economic dependency. Both Britain and France have a long history of interest in the region that Libya is in, a fact that that became vividly clear to me when I realised that British forces are now fighting over places where my Grandfather fought in the Second World War.

The European powers regard North Africa, and the African continent generally, as their legitimate sphere of influence, and their continued domination of the continent was threatened by the projects underwritten by the Libyan government may fatally undermine that. Their model for this war, as they explicitly say themselves, is Kosovo. A war for “humanitarian reasons” in fact is an all-out assault on a non-compliant government, aimed at replacing it with one that will give over control of the economy to western banks and allowing its territory to become a massive western military base. Such an easily controlled regime would be particularly useful given the uncertainty over what will happen in neighbouring countries such as Egypt and Tunisia.

None of this is meant to imply that I think the Libyan government is fantastic or that I’m cheering for the continued rule of Col. Gadaffi. His crazy pronouncements make him one of the most hilarious leaders of a state (easy to say when I don’t live there I know) in the world, with his bizarre sci fi visions of the future, his development of the world’s safest car, and his declaring himself “the king of kings of Africa.” The point about Gadaffi is that he’s the type of leader that the world’s global Euro-American powers don’t tolerate any more if they can possibly avoid it – a strong man great leader who retains a state apparatus with independence from the global market and able to allow Pharaohnic feats that demonstrates its power, such as the Great Man Made River.

Any war takes place for a complex web of reasons, and while this list might not be exhaustive, if we want to have any understanding of this latest military adventure by our bankrupt governments, it’s time to look at what Libya has actually done to attract the wrong kind of attention.
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Re: Chaos vo svete

Príspevokod užívateľa Honza » Po Aug 22, 2011 7:37 pm

Duro, to je dobra sumarize. Urcite by se dalo najit i vice duvodu nebo neco rozvest (například je pro US/Eu nežádoucí, aby se způsob fungování finančnictví rozšířil i do dalších zemí kontinentu...a takovou vizi zrovna pan plukovník asi má).
Jsou to navíc dosti nadčasové důvody.

Dovolím si udělat také jeden copy&paste, který dává zajímavé otázky k aktuálnímu dění.
Mimochodem, DEBKAfile, odkud je tento text, také není zcela nezajímavý server.

1. Where are the six government special divisions whose loyalty to the Libyan ruler and his sons was never in question? None of the 15,000 trained government troops were to be seen in the way of the rebel advance into the capital. The mystery might be accounted for by several scenarios: Either these units broke up and scattered or Qaddafi pulled them back into southern Libya to secure the main oil fields. Or, perhaps, government units are staying out of sight and biding their time in order to turn the tables on the triumphant rebels and trap them in a siege. The Libyan army has used this stratagem before.
2. How did the ragtag, squabbling Libyan rebels who were unable to build a coherent army in six months suddenly turn up in Tripoli Sunday looking like an organized military force and using weapons for which they were not known to have received proper training? Did they secretly harbor a non-Libyan hard core of professional soldiers?

3. What happened to the tribes loyal to Qaddafi? Up until last week, they numbered the three largest tribal grouping in the country. Did they suddenly melt away without warning?
4. Does Qaddafi's fall in Tripoli mean he has lost control of all other parts of Libya, including his strongholds in the center and south?

5. Can the rebels and NATO claim an undisputed victory? Or might not the Libyan ruler, forewarned of NATO's plan to topple him by Sept. 1, have decided to dodge a crushing blow, cede Tripoli and retire to the Libyan Desert from which to wage war on the new rulers?

6. Can the heavily divided rebels, consisting of at least three militias, put their differences aside and establish a reasonable administration for governing a city of many millions? Their performance in running the rebel stronghold of Benghazi is not reassuring.
7. Debkafile's military and counter-terror sources suggest a hidden meaning in Qaddafi's comment that Tripoli is now like Baghdad. Is he preparing to collect his family, escape Tripoli and launch a long and bloody guerrilla war like the one Saddam Hussein's followers waged after the US invasion of 2003 which opened the door of Iraq to al Qaeda?

If that is Qaddafi's plan, the rebels and their NATO backers, especially Britain and France, will soon find their victory wiped out by violence similar to – or worse than – the troubles the US-led forces have suffered in Iraq and Afghanistan.

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Re: Chaos vo svete

Príspevokod užívateľa Palo M. » Ut Aug 23, 2011 7:14 am

Duro, tych 5 bodov co si sem skopiroval, by sa dalo zhrnut do jedineho: Kaddafi sa dlhodobo snazil vykopat neokolonialistov z Afriky - a tym to sice trvalo dlho, ale nakoniec zorganizovali akciu proti nemu... Ale furt mi vrta hlavou to Rusko a Cina a ich nehlasovanie v rezolucii. Bud ich uz maju financnici obidvoch podchytenych (to by bolo dost zle). Alebo maju podchytenych len Rusov (tam to zjavne ide omnoho lahsie) a Cinania to skratka len posrali. Totiz Cinania sa vacsinou zdrzia vsetkych rezolucii, ktore sa netykaju priamo Ciny - teda nehlasuju za, ani ked je to vec s ktorou suhlasia vsetci... ale netyka sa cinskych zaujmov. No a pri Libyi je mozne, ze prava ruka nevedela, co robi lava: zastupca Ciny v BR OSN isiel podla "standardnej strategie" tj. zdrzat sa, len mu niekto z politbyra zabudol oznamit, ze Libya je cinska sfera zaujmu, lebo tam maju znacne investicie, od ktorych nechcu byt odpileni... vlastne mali a nechceli.

Honza, to je zaujimava analyza, mne sa tiez zda nepravdepodobne, ze by rebeli za noc obsadili cely Tripolis. Lenze spravy sa tiez rozchadzaju: Najprv podla sprav zajali 3 Kaddafiho synov (len tak "niekde volne pohodenych"? WTF?), Haag vraj dokonca poziadal o vydanie Sajfa... ale najnovsie Sajf vystupil v TV (evidentne na slobode a bez rebelov) a usmieval sa ukazujuc vitazne gesta. A previezol novinarov nocnym Tripolisom, po rebeloch ani stopy...
Hned som chytil deja vu zo zaciatku konfliktu, kde rebeli akoze rychlo vyhravali a obsadzovali jedno mesto za druhym a potom odrazu ich Kaddafiho jednotky hnali spat do Benghazi (dokonca vyhlasovali, ze do 48 hodin ich zlikviduju - ovsem o par hodin "prekvapujuco" prijali rezoluciu BR OSN, takze sme nemali sancu zistit, ci tych 48 hodin nebolo iba vystatovanie, kedze vyhlasili primerie a zastavili operacie). A takisto najprv podla medii Kaddafi dal bombardovat Benghazi a potom zrazu Rusi vyhlasili, ze maju satelitne fotky a ziadne bombardovanie nebolo...

S takymi "divnymi" spravami vobec nie je jasne, co sa teraz v Tripolise deje... kludne to moze byt aj uplne inac. Napriklad (teraz som si prave vymyslel), ze mesto zacali brutalne bombardovat aby ho cele znicili a ked do ruin vpochoduju rebeli, tak vsetci zacnu ukazovat prstami "pozrite sa, to znicil zly zly Kaddafi"...
A este nieco: Ked zacalo bombardovanie, cena ropy prudsie stupla. A teraz, po necakanom oznameni "rebeli obsadili vacsinu Tripolisu" zrazu cena ropy prudsie klesla... Asi to pre niekoho neboli az take neocakavane spravy.

Ved ked sa nejaky podfuck prevali, tak media sa prinajhorsom zasa vyhovoria, ze im rebeli dodali "nie celkom pravdive" informacie...


Ale v kazdom pripade, Libya je uz aj tak dost znicena, Kaddafi je dost stary a nejakeho plnohodnotneho nastupcu zjavne nema (jeho synovia sa mi nezdaju - aj ked to sudim na zaklade medii :P), takze zjavne neokolonializmus v Afrike ma stale zelenu...
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Re: Chaos vo svete

Príspevokod užívateľa Duro Kotulic Bunta » Ut Aug 23, 2011 1:46 pm

Ano Palo, to zhrnutie do jedneho bodu je mozne. :)
Anyway, zjavne sa opat a opat praktikuje intenzivna (dez)informacna vojna - s cielom demotivovat a vystrasit obyvatelov Tripolisu spravami o vzdavajucich sa kaddafiho jednotkach, zajatych kaddafiho synoch a rychlom dobyti mesta. Aby bezni ludia, ktorych viac ako polovica podporuje kaddafiho, nevysli do ulic a nebranili rebelom v dobyti mesta. NATO bombardovat obycajnych ludi na uliciach prilis nemoze - bombarduje sice kadeco aj teraz, ale ak by vysli do ulic desiatky ci stovky tisic civilistov branit mesto, tak s tymi neurobi NATO nic. A toho sa boja. Preto sa rozhodli viest co najucinnejsiu informacnu vojnu aby vytvorili strach a prinutili co najviac ludi zostat doma a nebranit Kaddafiho.

Zjavne dezinformacna kampan mala medzinarodny uspech - velvyslanectva po svete uz zabalili zelene zastavy a urobili nad Kaddafim kriz. Ale uvidime ako sa to vyvinie v samotnom tripolise - kampan a strategia NATO "rozbombardujeme ulice, a v noci sa povstalci do tychto casti presunu", uz zacina dostavat trhliny - Sajf prisiel k novinarom, previezol ich velkou castou mesta pod kontrolou vlady, to naozaj zapad nerad vidi po spravach o jeho zajati a dobyti "celeho mesta okrem kaddafiho rezidencie".. NATO bude musiet nieco vymysliet aby to dotiahlo do uspesneho konca.
Cas hra pre NATO - velmi rychlo ludia prestanu mat jedlo a vodu, a najjednoducshou cestou ako z toho vyviaznut bude nebranit povstalcom v prichode. Aj ked ktovie - pamatame si este na blokadu Leningradu...

Myslim, ze najpravdepodobnejsi scenar bude hromadny dovoz zbrani a municie (zatial to bolo len potajme) pre povstalcov, aby mohli vycistit ulice od kaddafiho priaznivcov a zastrasit beznych hludi (a samozrejme pozabijat tych aktivnejsich, ved nikto nebude skumat kto kolko civilistov zabil, urcite sa to v zavere hodi vsetko na Kaddafiho), ktori s jednym gulometom ci pistolou a par zasobnikmi s nabojmi nemozu dlho vzdorovat povstalcom s dostatkom municie, zbrani a tankov ci obrnenych vozidiel (zatial z Kataru).
A aby to nebolo take okate, pravdepodobne na to vydaju novu rezoluciu OSN, aby sa zrusilo "zbrojne embargo" (ktore sa samozrejme aj tak uz davno nedodrziava), ved Rusko a Cina uz aj tak nemaju co stratit, tak sa mozu znova zdrzat.

Proste maskarada bude pokracovat az kym nepozabijaju kriticke mnozstvo vojakov a najaktivnejsich obycajnych civilistov ktori budu branit svoj socialny rezim a pre ktorych je socialna istota dolezitejsia ako nejake plane zapadne pseudoslobody, islamisticke sarie, ich iracky hybrid alebo medzikmenove trenice.

A som zvedavy na zacinajuce konflikty medzi samotnymi povstalcami - ked odstrania spolocneho nepriatelia, to este len zacne vyrvar a vtedy sa ukaze ako uzitocna bola kaddafiho schopnost jednak zjednotit kmene a jednak drzat islamistov na uzde. Ale to uz bude zapadu jedno - hlavne ze Afrika stratila hybnu silu a najma financie na svoj rozvoj, nestabilna Libya zapadu bude vyhovovat viac ako Kaddafiho africky patriotizmus. Ako si Palo povedal, terajsi Kadafi je pristary (ved uz je davno na dochodku), novy Kaddafi sa necrta a je pomerne vzacnou osobnostou na to, aby sa v nestabilnej libyi objavil novy panafricky patriot.
It is by logic that we prove, but by intuition that we discover. [J.H. Poincaré, mathematician]
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Re: Chaos vo svete

Príspevokod užívateľa Duro Kotulic Bunta » So Aug 27, 2011 10:11 pm

Ale sa nam zapadniari zlakli ked zistili ze su v zabere TV... :) No, turisti v Libyi to asi nie su...
(dvaja v pozadi):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ_4B25mMhY
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A man who knows how to be alone is never lonely. [Osho]

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Re: Chaos vo svete

Príspevokod užívateľa Hefto99 » Pi Sep 02, 2011 7:41 am

Toto je vyborne:

Youtube - Libyan Rebel gets ass kicked with words!

Ale nezda sa mi to ako realny rozhovor moderatora s rebelom, skor to vyzera ako naraficena "propaganda z druhej strany".
Keď nevieš kde si, nemôžeš zablúdiť.
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Re: Chaos vo svete

Príspevokod užívateľa Duro Kotulic Bunta » Pi Sep 02, 2011 9:48 am

Hefto99 napísal:Ale nezda sa mi to ako realny rozhovor moderatora s rebelom, skor to vyzera ako naraficena "propaganda z druhej strany".


Dobry rozhovor, a aj ked to naozaj nevyzera ako uplne autenticky, je realisticky a pekne ilustruje pokrytectvo a rozpory v argumentacii zapadu.

Ja uz situaciu ani radsej velmi nekomentujem, pretoze keby som mal zbierat vsetky rozporuplne vyjadrenia zapadnych medii, tak by som mal toho uz plny harddisk a aj tak by to nikam neviedlo. Napr. na CNN som minule v clanku cital, ze Libya bola pred Kaddafim bohatou krajinou a Kaddafi z nej urobil chudobnu, cierne na bielom - ako si moze dovolit novinar napisat nieco take, v uplnom rozpore s faktami OSN a dalsich organizacii, do masoveho media? Sovietsky zvaz sa s jeho propagandou vobec nelisil od dnesnej zapadnej demokracie, je to presne to iste len v inej farbe, brainwashing ako vysity, princip demokracie spociva v umeni zmanipulovania ludi a ti potom volia v "slobodnych" volbach (rovnako "slobodnych" ako boli tie za komunizmu, aj ked z inej priciny), pricom je ale aj tak jedno koho zvolia (pokial by velku vacsinu neziskala nejaka "extremisticka" strana, napriklad tvrdo komunisticka - na prevenciu toho ale szamozrejme sluzi brainwashing), lebo okrem extremistov vsetci maju zaujem udrzat system v chode (pravicove aj mainstream lavicove strany typu "socialna" demokracia).
Alebo teraz ked NATO bombarduje Syrtu - akych civilistov teraz ochranuje, ked kmene (cize civilisti) sa jednoznacne vyjadrili, ze su verni Kaddafimu? Rebeli navyse odrezali Syrtu od elektriky a vody, a "predlzuju im ultimatum o tyzden". Bez vody pri pusti sa lahko predlzuje ultimatum. Pripomina mi to Leningrad obliehany nacistami, s tym, ze NATO teraz hra rolu Luftwaffe.

Ale v historickom kontexte je to logicke - sme ako rimska risa, technologicky a vojensky vyspeli, vyuzivajuci zdroje inych krajin na svoju existenciu, samozrejme aj za cenu devastacie a decimovania populacie tychto krajin.
It is by logic that we prove, but by intuition that we discover. [J.H. Poincaré, mathematician]
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Re: Chaos vo svete

Príspevokod užívateľa Palo M. » Ne Sep 04, 2011 6:04 am

Duro Kotulic Bunta napísal:...princip demokracie spociva v umeni zmanipulovania ludi a ti potom volia v "slobodnych" volbach (rovnako "slobodnych" ako boli tie za komunizmu, aj ked z inej priciny), pricom je ale aj tak jedno koho zvolia (pokial by velku vacsinu neziskala nejaka "extremisticka" strana, napriklad tvrdo komunisticka - na prevenciu toho ale szamozrejme sluzi brainwashing), lebo okrem extremistov vsetci maju zaujem udrzat system v chode (pravicove aj mainstream lavicove strany typu "socialna" demokracia).

To ale nie je princip demokracie. To, co si popisal, je princip fungovania dnesneho sveta, ktory sa za idealy demokracie len schovava. Tak isto, ako sa totac schovaval za komunisticke idealy.

Donedavna som veril tomu, ze totac bolo nestabilne zriadenie spejuce k svojmu nevyhnutnemu zaniku - a zapadna demokracia ma "zabudovany mechanizmus spatnej vazby", ktory zabranuje samozniceniu. Ale dnes uz si myslim, ze ziaden system nie je stabilny. Ludia nakoniec vsetko dokurvia.

Terajsia parodia demokracie nam uz poriadne hnije... ale este to nie je take zle, este bude hnit dalej, par milionikov ludi este zarve, kym si vsetci uvedomia, ze demokracia sa zmenila na tyraniu, ze ziju v novej totalite. A potom sa objavi nejaky alternativny ideal, ktory oslovi masy ludi (a nebude to nic z toho, co uz bolo, to uz je prezite - vid striedanie pravice a lavice v slovenskych vladach - to nie su ozajstne alternativy, iba ina farba zasadena do toho isteho ramca)...
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Re: Chaos vo svete

Príspevokod užívateľa Duro Kotulic Bunta » Ne Sep 04, 2011 12:47 pm

Palo M. napísal:Donedavna som veril tomu, ze totac bolo nestabilne zriadenie spejuce k svojmu nevyhnutnemu zaniku - a zapadna demokracia ma "zabudovany mechanizmus spatnej vazby", ktory zabranuje samozniceniu. Ale dnes uz si myslim, ze ziaden system nie je stabilny. Ludia nakoniec vsetko dokurvia.

Terajsia parodia demokracie nam uz poriadne hnije... ale este to nie je take zle, este bude hnit dalej, par milionikov ludi este zarve, kym si vsetci uvedomia, ze demokracia sa zmenila na tyraniu, ze ziju v novej totalite. A potom sa objavi nejaky alternativny ideal, ktory oslovi masy ludi (a nebude to nic z toho, co uz bolo, to uz je prezite - vid striedanie pravice a lavice v slovenskych vladach - to nie su ozajstne alternativy, iba ina farba zasadena do toho isteho ramca)...


Myslim, ze si to napisal velmi vystizne. Mozem k tomu dodat snad len to, ze je to logicke - nevidim ziaden sociospolocensky, historicky ani iny logicky dovod na to, preco by zrovna dnesny system mal byt stabilnejsi ako tie predosle.
Prave naopak - spolocensky vyvoj sa zrychluje, zmeny ktore kedysi potrebovali sto rokov dnes prebehnu za desatnasobne kratsi cas, cize stabilita by naopak mala klesat. A zjavne to tak aj bude, ved dominancia zapadnych krajin trva len cca pol tisicrocia, co nie je vela, zoberme si ze egyptska civilizacia dominovala vo svete niekolko tisicroci (podobne cinska vo svojej casti neglobalizovaneho sveta), potom grecko-rimska dominovala cca tisic rokov, potom arabsko/moslimska civilizacia dominovala cca osemsto rokov...
Takze je cas na dalsi zvrat vo vyvoji, pretoze naozaj tento system sa stava nestabilny, a to nielen po ekonomickej stranke.
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Re: Chaos vo svete

Príspevokod užívateľa Palo M. » Ne Sep 04, 2011 1:36 pm

Duro Kotulic Bunta napísal:zoberme si ze egyptska civilizacia dominovala vo svete niekolko tisicroci (podobne cinska vo svojej casti neglobalizovaneho sveta), potom grecko-rimska dominovala cca tisic rokov, potom arabsko/moslimska civilizacia dominovala cca osemsto rokov...
Takze je cas na dalsi zvrat vo vyvoji, pretoze naozaj tento system sa stava nestabilny, a to nielen po ekonomickej stranke.

Nemozeme to otrocky porovnavat s tymi starymi civilizaciami prave preto, ze svet kedysi nebol globalizovany. Takze tie civilizacie kedysi vydrzali tak dlho prave preto, ze jedna risa v zaciatkoch polikvidovala lokalnych konkurentov a potom uz prakticky nenarazila na protivnika adekvatnej sily... Objavenim Ameriky a kolonizaciou Sibiri sa ale zmenil svet (uz nie je mozne jednoducho expandovat na neobsadene uzemia)... to co fungovalo v Rimskej risi (su problemy doma? - expandujeme na nove uzemia!) uz dnes fungovat nemoze. Problem je prave v tom, ze dnesna "vyspela zapadna demokracia" sa v nicom nelisi od tych starych primitivnych civilizacii (zije na dlh, zdroje plundruje z okolitych krajin, na ludi sa vobec neberie ohlad, moralka postupne upada...). Lenze s takym primitivizmom sa v dnesnej dobe fungovat neda zdaleka tak dlho, ako kedysi. Preto sa ta doba skracuje, lebo okolity ramec sa zmenil, ale pritom kvalitativne prakticky nedoslo k posunu v organizacii spolocnosti (je to stale hierarchia, kde o diani rozhoduje hrstka vyvolenych, a vacsina ludi prakticky nema sancu zasiahnut do vyvoja).

Co sa tyka zvratu, tak si nemyslim, ze to pride velmi skoro. Este to iba hnije, ale zatial to velmi nekvasi. (To je tak trocha ako so slivkami :mrgreen:.)
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Re: Chaos vo svete

Príspevokod užívateľa Duro Kotulic Bunta » Po Sep 05, 2011 12:54 pm

Palo, suhlasim s tebou, a podla mna v podstate hovorime obaja o tom istom - globalizacia a technologicky pokrok su dva hlavne dovody zrychlovania spolocenskeho vyvoja, a teda kedze globalizacia je jednym zo vstupnych parametrov vyvoja, je vcelku konzistentne povedat, ze vzhladom na zrychlujuci sa vyvin spolocenstva Homo sapiensov sa bude zrychlovat aj dominancia jednotlivych kultur/subcivilizacii.
Ano, ta nasa neodhnije asi tak rychlo, jej potencial je este prilis velky, ale coze je to sto rokov v historii? Viac casu podla mna nevydrzi, na to je prilis financne patologicka (dokedy sa bude dat tocit pyramidova hra nekrytych penazi?) a ma prilis silny virusovy charakter (=infikuj a maximalne vyuzi zdroje). Jedinou moznostou akoby si mohla predlzit zivot a dominanciu by bola expanzia mimo Zeme, to ale podla mna nestihne (a je to kompatibilne s tym co hovoris - virusova civilizacia narazila na hranice a teraz bude tliet v uzavretom systeme az kym nevycerpa zdroje a nezdegeneruje).

A este jeden dodatok konkretnejsie k povodnej teme threadu - nemyslim sice, ze nejake peticie mozu cokolvek zmenit, je to len sum listia, pripadne vhodna mucholapka na identifikaciu inak zmyslajucich osob, ale davam sem link kvoli vystiznemu popisu/textu k tejto peticii, napr. pasaze typu:
Who is protecting the “other” civilians that are not in “coalition” with the rebels? The “international community” has been usurped by NATO which is fighting for the rebels. Who bears the moral and legal responsibility for the deaths of civilians killed by the rebels and NATO’s bombs? The UN, or the members of “the coalition of the willing”?
Is NATO beyond international law?


http://www.change.org/petitions/the-cau ... m=own_wall
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Re: Chaos vo svete

Príspevokod užívateľa Duro Kotulic Bunta » St Sep 28, 2011 10:20 pm

Pred dvoma tyzdnami som si precital na mathaba.net clanok o tom, ze NATO kupilo stare sovietske zbrane z byvalych sovietskych republik, ktorymi chce vyvolat vacsi chaos a nenavist obyvatelstva voci kaddafiho vojakom, pretoze by tymi zbranami pachali zlociny namierne proti civilistom, a sovietske zbrane by boli dokazom, ze to urobili kaddafiho vojaci (kedze kaddafi mal vzdy najma sovietske zbrane).
"To this end, the NATO sources have bought Soviet weapons that armed Libyan in the past. On Tuesday 13th it became clear that NATO had purchased Soviet weapons in Latvia, including a few tanks and armored vehicles, also from Moldova and possibly from other countries. They are using a heavy cargo aircraft IL-76 to transport these weapons.
This plot was hatched by NATO strategists in order to paint in the colors Jamahiriya mercenaries, posing as an army of volunteers, to create confusion by killing civilians in Libya.
This will sow discord between the tribes and the army with their attachments of volunteers."

http://www.mathaba.net/news/?x=628668

Povedal som si vtedy, ze je to prehnana prokaddafiovska propaganda, pretoze naco by NATO vozilo za takym ucelom sovietske zbrane ked ich vela museli mat z byvalych kaddafiho skladov priamo v Libyi.

Ale dnes som si precital mainstream spravu o prepusteni moldavskeho generala kvoli predaju 30 ton sovietskych zbrani do Benghazi 12. septembra.
http://www.sme.sk/c/6074922/sefa-moldav ... brani.html

Takze tie zbrane do libye naozaj sli. To lietadlo priletelo rovno do Benghazi, a teda muselo dostat povolenie rebelov a s najvacsou pravdeposobnostou aj NATO, kedze pochybujem zeby ich radarom unikol velky nakladny Iljusin.
Takze to uz je nielen nemoralna vojna, ale navyse este aj zakerna... A za roven sa tym pekne ukazalo, ze podpora Kaddafiho medzi ludmi je rozsiahla a pre NATO nebezpecna...
It is by logic that we prove, but by intuition that we discover. [J.H. Poincaré, mathematician]
A man who knows how to be alone is never lonely. [Osho]

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Re: Chaos vo svete

Príspevokod užívateľa mbs » St Sep 28, 2011 11:34 pm

smutné veru :-(


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