V tejto diskusii na SETI@home som sa docital, ze na forach Predictor@home zaviedli tvrdu cenzuru prispevkov...
Ak je to pravda co sa tam pise, tak to pre buducnost projektu nevyzera ruzovo...
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Diskusia na Predictore sa tykala afery, ktora sa prevalila prednedavnom - nelegale instalacie BOINCu uzivatelom s prezyvkou "Wate".
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Precudesne praktiky projektoveho menezmentu?
Moderátor: Moderátori
Vyjadrenie projektoveho admina
Zodpovedny administrator projektu napisal k problemu nasledovne vyjadrenie:
I've locked this thread to keep this message at the top.
The Trojan issue: I have never said anywhere that I was not going to do anything about the Trojan user. What I said was that I was not going to do anything just because there was a post on the web. I don't visit any other projects forums and I don't know anybody at the other projects. There is a mailing list for projects that as far as I know all projects are subscribed to. There has been no mention of this until last night there. I believe it is inappropriate to post the name of a suspected cheater on the forums and this has brought out all sorts of childish behavior and accusations. If I had noticed something suspicious I would have either mailed the BOINC folks directly or sent mail asking other projects to check to see if the problem exists on there sites. If I posted something in the forums I would have not given a user name and just a description of the issue so that users are aware. After the thread appeared in our forums two other threads were created accusing people of cheating. I deleted those threads because the accusations were just plain wrong and I locked the Trojan thread asking the users not to create a new one.
I really don't think that this is any of your business, but that night I sent mail to the user in question asking for a response. Last night a lady, who I do not know sent me mail from claiming to be from CDPN. The return address was a hotmail account. I believe this person was who she said she was, but it did remind me of the weekly mail I get from ebay asking me to update the account I've never created. This illustrates the point that seems to be universally missed here. The web can give credibility to ANYBODY. A post and discussion on the projects mailing list by project administrators would give credibility to this issue. A forum post has no credibility. If you disagree with this you should look at some of the thing you say in the forums. I read them all.
I will not delete someones account just because an angry mob instructs me to.
Freedom of Speech issue: I think that schools have really failed here. Freedom of speech does not mean that you can say anything anywhere you want. It means that I can criticize the government, which I do often, and there is nothing that they can do about it. It does not mean that you can walk into my house to express your opinion, you can't use my phone, computer, wireless, or the P@H server without permission. That permission can be revoked at any time. If you invite me to your home and discover that I like to talk about the KKK, which most people might find offensive, you can ask me to leave. If I refuse to leave you can call the police and have me arrested. There is no freedom of speech issue here. When you are on someone's property and you are ask to leave you have to leave.
I did not think the Trojan thread was appropriate and it appeared to be spawning other similar discussions. I locked the thread. If the user community had any respect at all that would have been the end of it. You would have been free to take the discussion to one of the many other forums. There is no freedom of speech issue here.
Several users decided that they were going to ignore my request and reopened the thread. Again, it's not your server. It's mine. Just as a property manager or security guard can ask you to leave a shopping mall I can ask you to leave our server. I used the boinc 'banish' function which suspends the users ability to create threads for a week or so. Had these users just gone elsewhere that would have been the end of it. Instead they created new accounts and more threads, which I started blocking and deleting. At this point their behavior, does not matter if you agree with my deleting the posts or not, is criminal. The banish message states that you are not able to post until such and such date. This is like returning to the shopping mall after a guard has told you to leave. You have no right to return. One user boasted that he could change his ip address after I blocked it. His posts made it clear that he understood that he had been banished and was doing everything he could to get around it. This is criminal behavior. A number of you have stated that we are endorsing criminal behavior by not deleting the trojan users account. Then you behave like this. I think most adults would have simply left. An adult may have disagreed, and contacted my by email..which is at the bottom of all my posts along with my address and phone number. Thats not what the people here did.
If I go to your home and you ask me to leave I'm gone. I have no idea what you are thinking. Looking at this thread it looks as if the average P@H forum user is a 12 year old. One lady ask me in a post to delete her account, so I did. Then she sent me mail calling me an asshole and declared war. Our freinds who repeatedly created new accounts sent me mail explaining that they were going to create threads everywhere, which they did. Look at what people have written in this thread. Who are you people? What is wrong with you?
I was unsatisfied with my mechanic. I stopped going to him. I didn't harass him. I didn't threaten him. I didn't like the work he did so I found someone else. I didn't put a billboard up outside his shop calling him names. There are some sick people here.
This all started because I know how people act in the forums and I wanted to put out a fire before it got out of hand. I've been with predictor for a while now and I know how people can be in the forums but I had no idea that people have this much free time and so little maturity.
I got a mail from a team captain in Germany threatening to boycott the site if we continue to endorse criminal activity. It's ironic that one of his people is on the list of people who created multiple accounts to get around being banished. If this is how your people act then don't threaten, I demand that you disconnect for predictor.
The bottom line is this. If you do not like P@H go somewhere else. Please. There are a large number of projects to choose from and if you look hard enough I'm sure that you will find one you like.
And finally: To respond to all the personal attacks I see this mess as a reflection on the character of the eight or so users who's tantrum started all this. You were told you couldn't do something so you through a fit.
dlb
I've locked this thread to keep this message at the top.
The Trojan issue: I have never said anywhere that I was not going to do anything about the Trojan user. What I said was that I was not going to do anything just because there was a post on the web. I don't visit any other projects forums and I don't know anybody at the other projects. There is a mailing list for projects that as far as I know all projects are subscribed to. There has been no mention of this until last night there. I believe it is inappropriate to post the name of a suspected cheater on the forums and this has brought out all sorts of childish behavior and accusations. If I had noticed something suspicious I would have either mailed the BOINC folks directly or sent mail asking other projects to check to see if the problem exists on there sites. If I posted something in the forums I would have not given a user name and just a description of the issue so that users are aware. After the thread appeared in our forums two other threads were created accusing people of cheating. I deleted those threads because the accusations were just plain wrong and I locked the Trojan thread asking the users not to create a new one.
I really don't think that this is any of your business, but that night I sent mail to the user in question asking for a response. Last night a lady, who I do not know sent me mail from claiming to be from CDPN. The return address was a hotmail account. I believe this person was who she said she was, but it did remind me of the weekly mail I get from ebay asking me to update the account I've never created. This illustrates the point that seems to be universally missed here. The web can give credibility to ANYBODY. A post and discussion on the projects mailing list by project administrators would give credibility to this issue. A forum post has no credibility. If you disagree with this you should look at some of the thing you say in the forums. I read them all.
I will not delete someones account just because an angry mob instructs me to.
Freedom of Speech issue: I think that schools have really failed here. Freedom of speech does not mean that you can say anything anywhere you want. It means that I can criticize the government, which I do often, and there is nothing that they can do about it. It does not mean that you can walk into my house to express your opinion, you can't use my phone, computer, wireless, or the P@H server without permission. That permission can be revoked at any time. If you invite me to your home and discover that I like to talk about the KKK, which most people might find offensive, you can ask me to leave. If I refuse to leave you can call the police and have me arrested. There is no freedom of speech issue here. When you are on someone's property and you are ask to leave you have to leave.
I did not think the Trojan thread was appropriate and it appeared to be spawning other similar discussions. I locked the thread. If the user community had any respect at all that would have been the end of it. You would have been free to take the discussion to one of the many other forums. There is no freedom of speech issue here.
Several users decided that they were going to ignore my request and reopened the thread. Again, it's not your server. It's mine. Just as a property manager or security guard can ask you to leave a shopping mall I can ask you to leave our server. I used the boinc 'banish' function which suspends the users ability to create threads for a week or so. Had these users just gone elsewhere that would have been the end of it. Instead they created new accounts and more threads, which I started blocking and deleting. At this point their behavior, does not matter if you agree with my deleting the posts or not, is criminal. The banish message states that you are not able to post until such and such date. This is like returning to the shopping mall after a guard has told you to leave. You have no right to return. One user boasted that he could change his ip address after I blocked it. His posts made it clear that he understood that he had been banished and was doing everything he could to get around it. This is criminal behavior. A number of you have stated that we are endorsing criminal behavior by not deleting the trojan users account. Then you behave like this. I think most adults would have simply left. An adult may have disagreed, and contacted my by email..which is at the bottom of all my posts along with my address and phone number. Thats not what the people here did.
If I go to your home and you ask me to leave I'm gone. I have no idea what you are thinking. Looking at this thread it looks as if the average P@H forum user is a 12 year old. One lady ask me in a post to delete her account, so I did. Then she sent me mail calling me an asshole and declared war. Our freinds who repeatedly created new accounts sent me mail explaining that they were going to create threads everywhere, which they did. Look at what people have written in this thread. Who are you people? What is wrong with you?
I was unsatisfied with my mechanic. I stopped going to him. I didn't harass him. I didn't threaten him. I didn't like the work he did so I found someone else. I didn't put a billboard up outside his shop calling him names. There are some sick people here.
This all started because I know how people act in the forums and I wanted to put out a fire before it got out of hand. I've been with predictor for a while now and I know how people can be in the forums but I had no idea that people have this much free time and so little maturity.
I got a mail from a team captain in Germany threatening to boycott the site if we continue to endorse criminal activity. It's ironic that one of his people is on the list of people who created multiple accounts to get around being banished. If this is how your people act then don't threaten, I demand that you disconnect for predictor.
The bottom line is this. If you do not like P@H go somewhere else. Please. There are a large number of projects to choose from and if you look hard enough I'm sure that you will find one you like.
And finally: To respond to all the personal attacks I see this mess as a reflection on the character of the eight or so users who's tantrum started all this. You were told you couldn't do something so you through a fit.
dlb
Nemam z toho dobry pocit - nepripada mi to dobre zvladnute.
O "wate" se vi uz hodne dlouho. Na CPDN jsem o tom diskutovali (v private sekci mezi adminy a lidmi z projektu) a verim ze na ostatnich se delo totez.
Na mail listu toho bylo az az a povazuji to za dosti znamou vec.
Precedenc smazani kreditu, ban etc. uz je take dlouho znamy.
Jakoby se na P@H probrali po rocnim spanku. Stejne jako zaspali u vyvoje aplikace nebo upgradu sw serveru.
Jmeno provinilce je tydny verejne znamo, stejne jako kdo na problem upozornil, jakym zpusobem k sireni trojanu doslo, jak je to rozsahle etc.
Je dosti velkym nedostatkem absence spoluprace s dalsimi projekty.
Mr. Braun je dost mimo misu (tj. mimo deni). Hodnotit (zname) uzivatele a moderatori zpusobem, ktery ucinil, je jednak urazlive, druhak ukazuje jeho neznalost.
'Mo' neni nekdo anonymni z webu, ale vazena kolegyne administratorka z CPDN, ktera mu psala. Stejne tak Cori dostala 5x ban a chudak Mr. Braun asi ani netusi, ze je moderatorka jinych for, (spolu)autorka nekoli log ci baneru projektu etc.
Cori to bere z humorem a kreativitou ji vlastni, takze si udelala krasne logo "Certified - Banned - Bad BOINC User"
Myslim, ze ostatni projekty se s problemem vyporadali o poznani lepe.
P@H sklidil od ucastniku projektu i s uroky to, se dlouho zanedbavalo - komunikace s uzivateli. A zde navic i komunikace mezi lidmi z ruznych projektu.
U mne ma P@H dalsi minus.
O "wate" se vi uz hodne dlouho. Na CPDN jsem o tom diskutovali (v private sekci mezi adminy a lidmi z projektu) a verim ze na ostatnich se delo totez.
Na mail listu toho bylo az az a povazuji to za dosti znamou vec.
Precedenc smazani kreditu, ban etc. uz je take dlouho znamy.
Jakoby se na P@H probrali po rocnim spanku. Stejne jako zaspali u vyvoje aplikace nebo upgradu sw serveru.
Jmeno provinilce je tydny verejne znamo, stejne jako kdo na problem upozornil, jakym zpusobem k sireni trojanu doslo, jak je to rozsahle etc.
Je dosti velkym nedostatkem absence spoluprace s dalsimi projekty.
Mr. Braun je dost mimo misu (tj. mimo deni). Hodnotit (zname) uzivatele a moderatori zpusobem, ktery ucinil, je jednak urazlive, druhak ukazuje jeho neznalost.
'Mo' neni nekdo anonymni z webu, ale vazena kolegyne administratorka z CPDN, ktera mu psala. Stejne tak Cori dostala 5x ban a chudak Mr. Braun asi ani netusi, ze je moderatorka jinych for, (spolu)autorka nekoli log ci baneru projektu etc.
Cori to bere z humorem a kreativitou ji vlastni, takze si udelala krasne logo "Certified - Banned - Bad BOINC User"
Myslim, ze ostatni projekty se s problemem vyporadali o poznani lepe.
P@H sklidil od ucastniku projektu i s uroky to, se dlouho zanedbavalo - komunikace s uzivateli. A zde navic i komunikace mezi lidmi z ruznych projektu.
U mne ma P@H dalsi minus.
-
Kiwi
- Príspevky: 2072
- Dátum registrácie: Ut Feb 13, 2007 4:18 pm
- Bydlisko: Sobrance
- Kontaktovať používateľa:
re:
Ahoj Honza, ja mam len jednu otazku.
Bertrand Russell bol blazon ci fanatik ?
Lebo ak si clovek nie je isty tym co robi,
tak urcite nie je mudry. Samozrejme
nehovorim, ze by sme nemali sem
tam pochybovat, aby sme sa uistili,
ci nahodou nelipneme na vlastnej hluposti,
ale urcite musime verit tomu, v com
sme dobri. To len tak na margo.
Bertrand Russell bol blazon ci fanatik ?
Lebo ak si clovek nie je isty tym co robi,
tak urcite nie je mudry. Samozrejme
nehovorim, ze by sme nemali sem
tam pochybovat, aby sme sa uistili,
ci nahodou nelipneme na vlastnej hluposti,
ale urcite musime verit tomu, v com
sme dobri.
To len tak na margo.Mr. Braun dela z nouze cnost - otevrene pise, ze neni obeznamen s ostatnimi fory/projekty a ve sve neznalosti hodnoti lidi, ktere nezna. Ja kuprikladu "mo.v" hodnotim na zaklade osobniho setkani a nekolikalete spoluprace na foru CPDN, vcetne neverejne sekce a osobnich e-mailu. Vim, o cem a o kom mluvim, narozdil od Mr. Brauna.
Postoje jako "Again, it's not your server. It's mine." ci delat s respektovanych BOINCeru skodnou rozhodne ke klidu na foru neprispivaji a ukazali se jako vysoce kontraproduktivni. Staci se podivat na forum P@H a ostatni fora.
Mr. Braun svoji neznalost situace resi z pozice moci, coz u takto citliveho tematu je prinejmensim nestastne.
Ve vysledku svym jednanim muze poskozovat nejen P@H, ale povest BOINCu jako takoveho. To rozhodne neni osamoceny nazor...
Chvalu P@H typu: ma nadstandardni podporu uzivatelu, pokrokovou aplikaci, bezvadny screensaver, zajimave publikace vysledku, nezapomenutelny den otevrenych dveri a podobne je obtizne najit.
Chci rici - P@H opet ztratil nejakou tu duveru a bude ji obtizneji ziskavat zpet. Jiz nemuze tezit z toho, ze byl jednim z prvnich projektu a vetsi uzivatelskou zakladnou. Ta se davno presunula na kvalitnejsi, komunikativnejsi a predevsim funkcni projekty...
Postoje jako "Again, it's not your server. It's mine." ci delat s respektovanych BOINCeru skodnou rozhodne ke klidu na foru neprispivaji a ukazali se jako vysoce kontraproduktivni. Staci se podivat na forum P@H a ostatni fora.
Mr. Braun svoji neznalost situace resi z pozice moci, coz u takto citliveho tematu je prinejmensim nestastne.
Ve vysledku svym jednanim muze poskozovat nejen P@H, ale povest BOINCu jako takoveho. To rozhodne neni osamoceny nazor...
Chvalu P@H typu: ma nadstandardni podporu uzivatelu, pokrokovou aplikaci, bezvadny screensaver, zajimave publikace vysledku, nezapomenutelny den otevrenych dveri a podobne je obtizne najit.
Chci rici - P@H opet ztratil nejakou tu duveru a bude ji obtizneji ziskavat zpet. Jiz nemuze tezit z toho, ze byl jednim z prvnich projektu a vetsi uzivatelskou zakladnou. Ta se davno presunula na kvalitnejsi, komunikativnejsi a predevsim funkcni projekty...
Kedze uz Predictora dlhsie neratam, celkom ma to pobavilo. Keby som ho este ratal, tak okamzite koncim. Nazyvat prispievanie do fora trestnou cinnostou je fakt huste...
Dalsi arogantny vyrok je:
"The bottom line is this. If you do not like P@H go somewhere else. Please. There are a large number of projects to choose from and if you look hard enough I'm sure that you will find one you like."
Povedal by som, ze slovo do bitky... Normalne zacinam zelat Predictoru, aby zdochol na nedostatok userov...
Okrem toho, ze vyrok "Again, it's not your server. It's mine." je nestastne formulovany, chlapik absolutne nema pravdu, pretoze:
Vela ludi rata BOINC kvoli kreditom. Aj ked ja osobne nie, chapem tuto motivaciu a nic proti tomu nemam. Ale trojan im pokazil ich poziciu vo svete... preto dokonca aj ludia ktori pocitaju vselico ine ale nie prave P@H, maju podla mna pravo upozornovat na trojana aj vo fore P@H... Co ine mali ti ludia robit? To mali radsej hacknut cely server a nasilu vymazat toho hajzlika?
Moj osobny nazor je, ze tak ako pre niektorych ludi neexistuju spinave peniaze, iba peniaze, tak pre P@H neexistuje "ukradnuty" vypoctovy vykon, ale iba vypoctovy vykon. A trojan im vlastne nepripadal ako nieco zle, ved oni ten vypoctovy cas neukradli... Celkovo mi to zapada do mojej predstavy P@H ako projektu kde je na prvom mieste zisk.
A nech to slak trafi: Ti z BOINC.SK co este ratate Predictora, neuvazujete o vyuziti ponuky pana Hnedeho? Je to take jednoduche: Odpojte sa od P@H a venujte svoj BOINC-cas radsej nejakemu inemu BOINC-projektu! Aj ja verim, ze si vyberiete...
Osobne si myslim ze je to lepsi napad, ako zaplavovat JEHO forum prispevkami - chudacik, musel to vsetko mazat a blokovat, to mu nerobte...
Dalsi arogantny vyrok je:
"The bottom line is this. If you do not like P@H go somewhere else. Please. There are a large number of projects to choose from and if you look hard enough I'm sure that you will find one you like."
Povedal by som, ze slovo do bitky... Normalne zacinam zelat Predictoru, aby zdochol na nedostatok userov...
Okrem toho, ze vyrok "Again, it's not your server. It's mine." je nestastne formulovany, chlapik absolutne nema pravdu, pretoze:
Vela ludi rata BOINC kvoli kreditom. Aj ked ja osobne nie, chapem tuto motivaciu a nic proti tomu nemam. Ale trojan im pokazil ich poziciu vo svete... preto dokonca aj ludia ktori pocitaju vselico ine ale nie prave P@H, maju podla mna pravo upozornovat na trojana aj vo fore P@H... Co ine mali ti ludia robit? To mali radsej hacknut cely server a nasilu vymazat toho hajzlika?
Moj osobny nazor je, ze tak ako pre niektorych ludi neexistuju spinave peniaze, iba peniaze, tak pre P@H neexistuje "ukradnuty" vypoctovy vykon, ale iba vypoctovy vykon. A trojan im vlastne nepripadal ako nieco zle, ved oni ten vypoctovy cas neukradli... Celkovo mi to zapada do mojej predstavy P@H ako projektu kde je na prvom mieste zisk.
A nech to slak trafi: Ti z BOINC.SK co este ratate Predictora, neuvazujete o vyuziti ponuky pana Hnedeho? Je to take jednoduche: Odpojte sa od P@H a venujte svoj BOINC-cas radsej nejakemu inemu BOINC-projektu! Aj ja verim, ze si vyberiete...
Osobne si myslim ze je to lepsi napad, ako zaplavovat JEHO forum prispevkami - chudacik, musel to vsetko mazat a blokovat, to mu nerobte...
---
"Ostatně, kdybych si měl vybrat pořadí Mac OS X, Windows, Linux, tak to bude: Linux, Mac OS X, sebevražda, Windows." (úryvok z internetovej diskusie)
Re: Precudesne praktiky projektoveho menezmentu?
Predictor je zpet - http://predictor.chem.lsa.umich.edu/ 
A s nim i David Brown
Nasel jsem ale zajimavy thread odkazujici na Transhumanism@Home.
Nejedna se o novy projekt, ale spise o takove hnuti (think tank?), skupinu.
V podstate vychazi z Transhumanismu, extropianu a podobnym myslenkovych smeru.
Distributed computing jako vyraz technologie zpusobujici zmeny spolecnosti je pro ne asi dobrou zivnou pudou.
Myslim, ze by zde mohli byt vzdelani lide, ktere by to zajimalo.
(Klidne je o tom mozne zalozit novy thread, pokud budeme chtit diskutovat).
A s nim i David Brown
Nasel jsem ale zajimavy thread odkazujici na Transhumanism@Home.
Nejedna se o novy projekt, ale spise o takove hnuti (think tank?), skupinu.
V podstate vychazi z Transhumanismu, extropianu a podobnym myslenkovych smeru.
Distributed computing jako vyraz technologie zpusobujici zmeny spolecnosti je pro ne asi dobrou zivnou pudou.
Myslim, ze by zde mohli byt vzdelani lide, ktere by to zajimalo.
(Klidne je o tom mozne zalozit novy thread, pokud budeme chtit diskutovat).